This is a conversation on contemporary thoughts about play and pretence, entitled ‘Pretend’ as a frame for social games that involve role-play as well as live art and participatory practice, where the audience is a central player. Artist Yara El-Sherbini has been based in Santa Barbara for almost a decade ago but at the time of this conversation, is about to return to the UK. She uses play and humour in her live art, installation and video practice to question systems of power and influence with her audiences. Also in conversation is Jaakko Stenros, a senior lecturer in game studies at Tampere university in Finland. Jaako takes part in and writes about ‘LARP’ (Live Action Role Play); particularly Nordic LARP, where this practice of character-driven real-world role-play is highly evolved. Their shared interest and practice includes taking familiar socio-cultural tropes and pushing, reframing or unsettling these through language and behaviour to produce fruitful and often challenging engagement with the audience and/or players.